Anne: So Joseph, thank you so much for agreeing to talk to us.
Joseph: No worries.
Anne: We are doing this project and trying to collect oral histories of
hopefully 200 returning migrants…
Joseph: That's nice.
Anne: ... to find out about their stories. And we really appreciate you
being here. We understand that it could be difficult when you think back.
So if it is, I'm really sorry, and I hope that it's not painful.
Joseph: Well, not as much as what people will think, but yeah, it is.
Anne: Yeah, of course. So again, we're really thankful. So Joseph, when did
you go to the United States?
Joseph: I've been there since I was two years old.
Anne: So you were two?
Joseph: Yeah.
Anne: And then, when did you come back?
Joseph: 22 years old.
Anne: How old are you now?
Joseph: 29. Well, I've been back on and off. Been firmly here in Mexico
about five years. But after I left the military, I came back here.
Anne: You were in the military in the United States?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: So tell me. You grew up as an American, right?
Joseph: Yeah.
Anne: Where did you grow up?
Joseph: New York City.
Anne: Where in New York?
Joseph: Brooklyn, New York.
Joseph: Okay. I was in Red Hook.
Joseph: Now it's nicer. Back in the day, it was still gangs. It was still a
lot of discrimination, Blacks against Hispanics, Hispanics against
Hispanics. So, yeah.
Anne: So, growing up, you felt like you were an American.
Joseph: I didn't know I was illegal until I actually applied to college.
Joseph: Yeah. So that was of a little trip and then-
Anne: Then you went to college?
Joseph: By the military. So I had three options. Lawyer told me, because my
father didn't register to pay taxes, that I couldn't legally get my own
papers started. So either I had to get married by an American citizen, have
a baby by an American citizen, or join the military. So that's whenever
9/11 was going on. And about a few years later, so that's when I decided to
join up. My brother joined when 9/11 was going on. He actually went to
Desert Storm.
Joseph: And I was given the options. So I didn't want a kid. I didn't want
a family, I didn't want a wife. So I said the best option was the military.
And military pays for the school. So I got a scholarship for NYU. After I
went to apply for that, they renounced my scholarship because I was
illegal. So I had to apply like everyone else, and lost my spot. But being
in the military, we have certain leeways where you can actually get
reassigned your spot that was given to you. So I didn't lose a spot right
there in the moment, but it was very hard to study and be in the military.
The military had assumptions. I was stateside maybe four months, three
months, or even weeks.
Anne: So you were trying to go to NYU while you were in the military.
Joseph: Yes. Most of it was virtual studies. Some of them were actually
in-class studies. But after that, I actually was able to conclude
university. But basically my time that I came back, I would go to New York
because I was in Fort Benning, Georgia. That's where we were stationed out
there, and I'm out of Virginia, Norfolk. We went to Fort Benning, Georgia
because that's an airborne school.
Joseph: Whenever I was stateside, I would have traveled to New York, get my
classes, my exams, talk to my teachers, do everything I could in the time I
was given. And if I was called upon, then I will come back and leave.
That's basically how I struggled.
Anne: And you graduated.
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: Congratulations.
Joseph: Thank you.
Anne: Wow. That's great. What did you major in?
Joseph: Psychology.
Anne: Wow.
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: What a success story.
Joseph: Not really. I mean, people come and look at me and they don't see
your typical Mexican that was deported because of drugs or was deported
because of gang fights or was deported because of the wrong place, wrong
time. I actually came back because I gave up on the United States. There's
a lot of things that when you're in the military, you see, you just keep it
on the down low. And things you see over there, friends you see, friends
you see leave, friends you see gone. And it's just difficult to actually
believe in a system that protects you while you're in there, and
does…supposedly cares about you, and brainwashes you. It's very different
when you're on the outside.
Joseph: When you're not needed anymore, or you gave up on being that
military "all you can be" motto BS, it really changes you. I mean, there
are certain jobs that tell you that you're doing good for people, and
there's also the little flip coin where you see shit over there and you're
like, "Ugh, this is not what I signed up for." And then you come back to
the States, and you see ignorant people talk down on people about their
rights, about their cultures, about their maybe situations. And it’s not
enough for…it was not enough for me to stay there because in a literal
sense, I gave up on humanity from the States because I saw so much more
humanity from the people we were fighting, the people we were trying to
kill, and other people around the world, that their mindsets were very
different from American mindsets.
Joseph: I think the majority of Americans have that patriotic stigmatism
inside of them. And they really don't see outside of the borders, outside
of the world. I mean the news, the media covers certain things, but it
doesn't really cover a lot of aspects of what can really change the mindset
of everyone. There's a famous book called on the Living the Society, where
a quote was given from Buddha, where if you give up on society, when you
lose faith in humanity, is when humanity is lost. So that has always been
something positive to me. So, every time I can help someone out or
orientate someone, I try and do it. I try and do the best to change their
minds and actually see them a different world where they were brought up,
basically. So yeah. It was difficult.
Anne: So was it really the military that changed your view of the United
States?
Joseph: Yes. I lost my fiance in combat. She went MIA for about a month. We
didn’t know…I didn't know what was going on. We were about to get… we were
engaged, and we were going to get married. And basically it's things that
happen, that communication doesn't get to you fast enough. You really don't
know what MIA? What's going on? They haven't had the count, then people
lose communication, she was stationed somewhere else. And as fast as you go
somewhere else, the files are sent, encryptions or whatever. And it takes a
while. So, whenever it was declared, it was just like...
Joseph: I mean, I lost my friends. I lost my best friend. And it was
difficult to go through that process whenever you actually start losing
brothers in arms because you live and you breathe and you bleed together.
They're your front-line family. You really had to trust your man to your
left and your man to your right. If you don't trust them, there's no trust,
then there's no brotherhood.
Joseph: And that is what was taught to us since day one. I mean, you've had
to be the best you can be to join certain squadrons. But whenever that
happened to her, which is…I just started doubting everything. I started
reliving, how some friends have PTS, some friends are gone, their families
didn't get enough pay. They got a very shitty compensation for losing
somebody.
Joseph: Then her as well, living my experience. As someone that was in
there, you know what you signed up for, but you really don't expect it. And
whenever things happen unexpected that change your life, that you actually
want to keep living, or you actually want to keep fighting for. And there
was a motto there that says that, "It can either get you killed or can
either make you live more."
Joseph: So whenever that happened, I just broke down. Didn't know what to
do. I tried to just stay there for about a couple of months. Everything
kept reminding me about her, every time we spent. And since I wasn't really
at home because of school and everything, she would travel with me. So she
was the person that actually kept me sane.
Joseph: And whenever that happened, I just kinda lost it. I didn't know
where to go, what to do, what to think. Psychology teaches you that there's
always a mid and a start point. The end point is when you're dead, but the
mid can always reset. The start point can always jump to the mid without
even any progression or anything going through it. So it was very difficult
for me to actually leave the military because I left the military because
of that decision too. And go to the real world and find out that there's
nothing you can do in the real world, because basically they trained you to
become a certain person. And there's not a lot of things you can do in the
military, outside of civilian, besides being an officer or any kind of
raising or anything that actually requires for tactical issues to be used
in that society. And we were never taught to be businessmen. We were never
taught to think as a different position. We were always taught to be
analytic and decisions that would keep us alive and make sure that we got
the job done.
Anne: So were you hoping that getting your degree would move you along to
finding a position in society or was that-
Joseph: I was hoping it would, but I really mainly did it because my
childhood wasn't easy. My childhood was very tough as well. So the scars
dumped me out whenever I finished everything. And I guess there was a part
of me that we always want to travel. And so I did travel. I left the
States. I started traveling. Didn't know where to go. So, best option was
Mexico because my family and my friends were really worried. They were
worried that I would go to any part of the world and be sucked up. I'd be
giving an opportunity for someone to actually change my mind because at
that moment I was very angry with the United States. So my friends would be
thought that if I left anywhere to Europe or anywhere to China or stuff
like that, that I could easily be given that BS working against the system,
stuff like that.
Joseph: So a lot of my family voted. My friends also were very lenient for
me to come to Mexico because I have family here that I haven't met since I
was two years old, I didn't even know them. So I decided to come here and I
traveled Mexico when I first got here, started meeting all the kind of
family I had. And I decided to stay, I mean, I decided to say because it
was closer to be with my niece and nephew. And it’s closer to my family,
it’s closer to what I'm used to. I do go to visit sometimes, but right now
it's just trying to find myself. The first year I was here was very tough.
When I let my family down and my friends down, I did everything imaginable
that was not as a good person to do or what I was taught to do.
Joseph: I use what I was taught to actually do bad things here. And after
that, it was downhill until, people who love me came down and kinda set me
straight. And they told me that my father-in-law really talked me into it
and saying that I had to change because if I was still here it’s because I
want to be, and I'm still here because I want to keep moving on. So I've
been trying to move on slowly. I've been trying to set my life straight
here. I guess all the rebellion that I was supposed to do when I was 15 or
12, I kind of redid it here in Mexico. And I just kind of learned that I
had to do something a little bit different in my life and also in memory of
my friends, in memory of her that I had to give myself an opportunity to
actually give my true potential.
Joseph: So I changed my life around here and I started working in different
jobs and good jobs and always helping out anyone I can, if I can go ahead
and shed some light, I always see kids in the street or people who come
back from the States who want that thug life or who were in a thug life.
Think about that mindset. Just tell him like, “Hey man, I don't talk like
you. But trust me, I was just like you when I was 12, I was just like when
I was 13, it's not a way to go.”
Joseph: I mean if you want a family, you want a future, you just aspire to
something better to be yourself and just get the opportunity to actually
grow into something that was not drilled into you in your hood. That you
are meant to be a doctor, scientist, lawyer, whatever you want to be.
You're in the hood. You're driven to be a drug dealer, a drug addict, a
drug hustler, swinging, doping, everything, gang banger. So most kids that
come here are not orientated, or they don't have that guidance or they feel
that they are man enough to handle the situation instead of actually
analyzing their position and saying, I don't need to fight. I need to just
become, do me, grow and actually make myself proud of yourself.
Anne: So that sounds wonderful. So what jobs do you have now that you're
proud of?
Joseph: Well, software engineer job is right now what I'm actually been
doing. I've started a job thanks to HolaCode, that is right now one of the
good companies to work here in Mexico city is actually ranked amongst the
top 10. And it's awesome. They have a different culture mindset. They're
not segregated. They have an open mindset of how you learn, how you adapt,
who teaches you, who goes with you if you have a problem, they're always
taking care of you. They're always asking you are you okay. Recently I got
sick because of some of the food here and they were very understanding.
They were like, you don't need to be here, go home. The code is going to be
here. The work's going to be here, but if you're not okay, then we can't
have you here because you can't work like this. You understand that you're
not a hundred percent.
Joseph: So just go home and recover and come back. And that was kinda like
the best part, because some other jobs they really treat you like a slave.
[Chuckles]. They tell you, “Oh you got to work.” Doesn't matter if you're
sick or if you're sick, you can go to the medical institutions here in
Mexico City but which are all horrible. And you lose more if you actually
get sick, than you actually go to work. So that's the shitty society that
we live in Mexico. But there's compensation when actually you start working
for what you want, going and studying and actually doing courses that will
give you an empowerment in Mexican society to let you know, “Hey, I am
ready. I am able to do this job. And I'm just as qualified as anyone who
actually did study here or actually does have a major here, and I can
actually show it to you.”
Anne: That's great. That’s great. So when you came back, did you have a
visa where you could go back and forth from the States?
Joseph: I'm a resident.
Anne: You're a resident of the US?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: So you came back voluntarily because you were disillusioned with the
US?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: And when you came, you came to see family, you started with family?
Joseph: Yeah. Came for family. And also because I never really got to the
vacations that I wanted. So I mean, Mexico has a lot of beaches, a lot of
pretty beaches. So I would suppose I seen them too, so that’s nice.
Anne: But it was tough. The adjustment was tough because you were still
mourning-
Joseph: Yeah. It was like, you're going to evolve a lot of bad decisions
along the way. And the worst part is because I did not know Spanish. I
actually grew up in a Spanish household where that wasn't really used. It
was always English. So whenever that happened, I came to Mexico and I felt
that I didn't have the social skills or the communication skills to
actually interact with someone here. I would literally use my phone to
actually show pictures or show the translator saying what I wanted, what I
needed. So it was very tough. But the bad thing about it is that the good
people that are here fortunately don't really know English and the bad
people that are here do know English. So whenever you start walking around,
start going around, started going sightseeing, you find that kind of
English vibe there, and you start talking to them, I felt good because it
sucked not to being able talk to somebody.
Joseph: I really would just stare at people and try and learn their
language and something that is my language that I'd never really learned.
And those people who have spoken English were like, “Hey, it's another
person who was lost, let's orientate him to our lifestyle.” So that's what
happened there. And slowly but surely I started learning Spanish, started
moving around. I didn't know how to move around because the government
here, doesn't give you a lot of aid in letting you know what to do or where
to go or how to do it, or actually translate the papers to you.
Joseph: Because I mean, everyone, if you ask around, you can get somewhere,
but it also depends on the government as well to actually say, “Hey, there
are some Mexicans that were never raised here, but there are from here and
that need that translation in English to let them know what can we just do,
how to do it and where to go and how much is it going to cost them and not
get swayed into something that's not the correct way, or that you pay more
for a document that's not supposed to be paid for, stuff like that.
Anne: Yeah. You get taken advantage of.
Joseph: Exactly.
Anne: So how long did it take you to learn the language and pull yourself
out of your grief and your bad decisions?
Joseph: A year and a half it took me to actually change my life since I was
here.
Anne: Yeah.
Joseph: And after that, then I started working on getting my documents,
getting my papers. And it really did take me a year and a half to actually
change who I had become in Mexico. And I look back at myself and I feel
disappointed because I had actually certain values, certain cultures,
certain things that were taught to me. And that was shown to me also in the
military that I should have not let the grief get the best of me, but
sometimes, your mind just plays nasty little tricks on you, that you don't
know what's going on, and you really want to escape what you were taught.
You want to escape everything. You just want that pain to go away. You want
that whole suffering of what's going on to just go away. I guess the easier
decisions are always the hardest to come back out of them.
Anne: So when you look back on your time in the US, you were there for 20
years, right?
Joseph: 22, 23.
Anne: 22, 23 years. You told me about the bad. Was there any good?
Joseph: School, friends, family. Best memories of me are always with my
friends. I wasn't really close to my family. My family was very difficult
to live with. The only reason I actually was a very good scholar was
because my dad didn't like for us to come home with a B, he would say that
he was laid off, he would work his ass off for us to actually learn
something in school. And that a B is not worth it, that he wanted A's. So
if we did get a B, it was a beating for sure. I'm not talking about the
little slap on the wrist it was a real good beating.
Joseph: My mom was, she didn't have a lot of things to do. She's always
been a hustler. So she always sold products to show up catalogs, stuff like
that, like little household items. And she has always been very resentful
that she came to the States. And it's been very hard living with that
person because she's always bitter. And that bitterness was always giving
out, and beatings and yelling. So since I was little, I always try to stay
away from home.
Joseph: I started working since I was 11, because I didn't want to stay
home anymore. So I started finding my own way of money because my father
taught me that if I wanted things I had to pay for it. So they would never
give me allowance, they would never give me money, they would just only
give me enough for the transportation. And when the New York started giving
the school aid, I mean, they didn't give me any more money, so they
wouldn't give me anything. And after that, it was just very difficult to
actually live with both of those types of people. When I grew older, my
father was very scared of me because of what I had become. He knew that he
couldn't push me around anymore. He knew that very clearly. And I let him
know that too, because I was not very happy with him after seeing him after
six years.
Joseph: So he tried to impose that father authority. And I told him that,
no, he lost the privilege. My mother also learned the hard way that she
wasn't able to talk to me anymore the way she did when I was younger. And I
went through every kind of thing imaginable by mom. My mom threw plates,
tools, bamboo sticks, anything she could really get her hands on to make
her point that she was not to be messed with. She even threw an iron at our
heads once. I remember me and my brother ducking at that. So I guess all
those memories and all those childhood relations actually made me very
aware that…since very little that I was in here for myself, that I didn't
count nobody.
Joseph: And the beauty part was when I met my friends, friends that kinda
had the same situations or were living the same lifestyles, we grew too
close together. We were always working together or working to become
better, working to get out of the hood, not become those kinds of children,
prodigies of being a drug dealer or the gang bangers, stuff like that. So
that was really cool. So we actually had this kind of friends and that was
the best part growing up, but having to share that suffering with someone
else, that's probably going through the same thing or differently, but in
the same, we're all suffering. And out of that suffering, you make a unity
and you make friendships. You make something bad good. And my best memories
have always been playing, hanging with all my friends, parties with my
friends, doing things with all my friends that have been my best memories.
I have good memories of my family when we have reunions, but they're very
little, but the best memories have always been that I can count on friends.
Anne: And are you still in contact with them?
Joseph: Oh yes. I'm still-
Anne: That is great. So when you look forward, I mean, you’ve had a tough
life, a really tough life, and you know, the country where you grew up, you
feel denied…you're disillusioned with that country. And you're now in a new
country. What are your dreams for you now? What are your dreams?
Joseph: To become a good enough programmer to actually do a startup and get
the opportunity that many people don't get. A lot of people are really
smart here. A lot of people have the skills and mindsets to become a good
businessman, a good teacher, stuff like that. So basically be able to
contribute the same way. All the posts have been attributing to young minds
to let them know that there's a different way to live life here. And that's
actually what I want to do. I've always wanted to do that. In some little
way, I've always tried to help someone find a job. Someone find a way to
get things. So that's my idea.
Joseph: My dream and hope is to one day actually have a company that's
actually ran with immigrants. Doesn't matter if they're deported, not
deported or not even from Mexico or United States, anyone who wants to come
and work who has the time to show it because we're not the only country
that's in mourning. Right now, Guatemala, Argentina are going through rough
times; the economy is going through a very hard time and there's kids and
people out there that actually are very smart.
Joseph: Get the word out there that there are places in certain countries
that are willing to invest in kids and willing to invest in certain
futures. As long as you actually put the time in, put the effort, put the
work in, and you actually show that you're committed to actually becoming
something else and wants to change your life around. So my idea is to have
a job or work environment that we can give that to those people.
Anne: That's great. It sounds like you have the capabilities and the drive
to do it.
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: Do you hope to have a family or do you have a family of your own?
Joseph: My guess somewhere in my head, I'm still hurt. I've had partners
here, but I have never really committed myself. And my last relationship
shed some light on that. It was very hard to hear the truth and to actually
say, wow, you're right. Usually I'm never wrong. Usually I'm always the
kind of person that is very analytic and chooses his battles that he knows
he's going to win. And if I can't win that battle, I'll learn it and make
sure I can win it. So whenever that happened, it was a little shot to the
head, made me think. So right now, I don't want a family. I do strive on
having a family one day. It is a dream of mine. But I guess I actually want
to give myself time to become a better person, a better man, and actually
first complete my training because I'm still studying, I'm still learning.
So I want to be able to go ahead and have a good foundation on my job, that
that foundation can go ahead and provide for something else and also
provide for a family.
Anne: Is there anything that you would like to say—we're going to finish up
now—but is there anything that you haven't covered that you would like to
say to the people that will read this report about being a returning
migrant?
Joseph: I guess it's just really to open their minds, brain and horizons. I
actually take the time to meet people, learn people because nowadays you
see social media, people are stuck in social media. I mean, we don't have
the good old times where people actually sit down and talk and actually
meet and learn about each other, unless you're actually trying to become a
partner or stuff like that. Even whenever you're going out with your
friends, just talk, stop being on social media, stop posting pictures. Yes,
pictures are going to last forever, but those memories are going to last
longer. And I guess just to always keep an open mind and help people in
need.
Anne: Great. well, thank you.
Follow up on June 12, 2019
Anne: This is Anne and I am doing a follow-up survey with Joseph.
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: And thank you for coming.
Joseph: It's been crazy.
Anne: This is our last hour doing interviews so I'm so glad you're
here.
Joseph: I know the guy downstairs told me, "You're literally the last
guy we're going to..." I'm like, "Oh yes. Can you tell her that?"
Anne: So, has the last year been difficult?
Joseph: Bumpy roads, on and off, yes. After we last met, after
graduation, from there getting a job was fairly easy-
Anne: It was easy, good.
Joseph: But then after coding and I didn't feel it was my knack to do
that. I got it, I understood it, I understand the logical processes, I
know how to do it and know how to work it, I was actually a good
element in the job, but it just wasn't something that I was very
passionate about. And that's whenever I asked them about business
analyst and project management. They told me that from my previous
background experience I'll be a good fit, but since I was already a
developer, I couldn't jump.
Anne: So, in the company that you're working?
Joseph: And I told him that, "Well, I was here under the pretense that
you guys offer that, you guys offer growth and stuff like that." And
they're like, "Yeah but we offer growth in your same sector. I mean,
you're a developer. If you want to grow to be a Senior Mid Architect or
something that will help you."
Conversation briefly interrupted.
Joseph: And so, decided to leave that company.
Anne: How long were you there?
Joseph: Six months. I was there six months, but then someone corrupted
me. They're like, "Hey, we can use a business analyst like you." And
I'm like, "Ooh, I want to go." And like, "Can you help me go there?"
And he was a manager there. I'm like, "Yeah, we'll try." And then when
we talked to Human Resources, they're like, "Yeah, you can't switch
that fast. You have to be at least a year tenure here and that year you
have to be here." And, since I was learning fast, I was getting jumped
into groups that were a lot more expert than me. So, I felt
overwhelmed. I'm like, "Huh, I don't know what to do about that here."
Guys there were actually really cool, they taught me a lot of neat
tricks, coding methods, how to go ahead and process things better.
Joseph: So, that was actually very helpful. After that, my mentor left
and I felt kinda bummed and I'm like, "God damn he left. Like I'm
alone." I was still professional enough to go ahead and work and things
on my own. Then I started doing courses on Business Analyst and then a
company that we were working for saw my resume. And so I'm like, "Hey,
you're a developer, but you're a project manager." I'm like, "Yeah.
Before I actually came into this, I was working other jobs, passing
back and forth. But my main focus is business analyst and project
management. But I've never really done that because most of the project
managements that I've gone through have been call centers. Requisitions
orders, where the client needs, innovations, critical thinking ideas,
expand the communications broad line, not really programming or
applications in technical industries. I'm not very familiar with that.
But, now that I'm a technical... Well I mean developer. I know those
things now, so I can go ahead and do that."
Joseph: They're like, "Hey, you want a job?" I'm like, "Oh, what are
you offering?" And he was like, "Well, we'll take you away from them,
if they don't have a problem with that, because you signed a
confidentiality report. So, they don't put that in your face and you
can't work for me because we're technically partners." And I was like,
"Oh, okay. Yeah, it works for me." So, told the company, "Hey, thank
you. I'm leaving." And they're like, "Why are you leaving?" I was like,
"Because I want to be a business analyst, project manager." I'm
thankful, all the code gave me what I need as a developer to understand
project management and technical concerns because project management
that I was only qualified for were call centers or things that they
didn't have to require technical savviness. They had to be
telecommunications and stuff like that.
Joseph: That is more media focal points instead of technical focal
points. So, they gave me what I need to go ahead and do that. So,
whenever I started working there, I've been with him for seven or eight
months with him already. And I ascended, I started off as a Junior
Project Manager, but their process was horrible. They didn't have a lot
of rules, they didn't have a lot of organizations, they didn't have a
lot of things set up in the programming. And I thought it was a
startup, but they mentioned to me that they have about 20 years or plus
presence. So, I was very shocked because the company that long in
trajectory should have things set up really good. So, whenever I
started doing an implementation, it's like, "I have real faith in you.
You can go ahead and go what you feel like, just make sure the changes
you make, you go by me and so I can go on and have your back."
Joseph: Because, the CEO was skeptical. He was like, "Why are we going
to get a programmer project manager then switch over?" And they're
like, "I have faith in the kid." I'm like, "Oh, thanks." So, I decided
to prove the CEO wrong. And I started to make a lot of changes. So,
there's something called "confluence", which is an article knowledge
base. Which is what clients and us use to know process, follow-ups,
skim designs, anything of sorts for the company, how it works and also
how they work too. I restructured my area, how procedures work, how
setups work, how support is going to be and how help desk is going to
be, how Q&A is going to be, how developers should work. After that,
it took me about two months to implement those changes. I made changes
to the team, started making more decision calls to get known.
Joseph: CEO recognized what I was doing. Then he just gave me a project
last month, until this month I'm doing it, creating a new platform for
ticketing system for them, because the one that we have currently is
not working properly or it's not fulfilling their needs with
customer-client relationship. So, I'm doing that one right now and it's
been bumpy ride. I'm kinda working all the time, going all over Mexico
City sometimes to visit clients, to take some ease off saying like,
"Hey, what's going on? You have this problem." And I'm like, "okay, so
let's get things straight. Yes, we have a bad trajectory of bad blood
between us, but I'm new. I'm here to make changes. And as you can see
from three or four months behind, changes have been made. And it's not
as fast as you hope, it's not as fast as you think money will buy, but
it's a process. And it's like us developing new applications, the same
thing as me creating things here. So, you have to understand that my
focal point is to go ahead and create things for us and you to become a
better partner and also a better business, because if they grow, I grow
and if I grow, you grow, you grow too."
Anne: So, that's working well?
Joseph: Yeah.
Anne: And do you like it?
Joseph: Yes. Another company is trying to rob me.
Anne: They're trying to rob you?
Joseph: Well they're trying to take me with them.
Anne: Oh, another company's trying to recruit you.
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: Is that going to happen?
Joseph: I don't know. They're actually getting to the price.
Anne: They're giving you a good price?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: Wow. Okay. That's great. That's amazing.
Joseph: It's actually helped me out. What I learned in military about
structure, being very stern. And something that's helping out with
clients is that I'm very firm in how decisions are made and how I talk
to them. Most of the project managers that have talked to clients, they
even told me that they don't understand the business itself. They don't
understand how things work. They don't understand business flow and
they don't understand how stakeholders actually worry about little
things that, like, "It's my money." And I told him like, "No, don't
worry, I know it's your money because that's how I get paid. And if I
don't get paid, I'm sad too." So, I'm very goal oriented. And in this
company, I never told them I was military, because usually whenever I
tell them that, they want me to travel because I have a visa to go
ahead and travel.
Anne: Okay. Internationally?
Joseph: Yes-
Anne: And you don't want to travel?
Joseph: No, I don't want to travel.
Joseph: I want to stay still, get something set up correctly. As far as
working, because before that it was hard for me to actually establish a
good job because of all my mental PTS that I had. That was very
unstable in certain jobs. I had very good jobs in Mexico, but I kind of
blew them off because I just needed to escape certain things and
certain dates. The dates are the ones that killed me, certain things
that just remembered, a date in specific and I'm like, "Oh wow, this
happened," and started just reminiscing. And that kind of blocked me
from actually achieving what I could be doing.
Anne: Yeah.
Joseph: So, I've been actually... Not therapy on myself, but using what
I learned in college for psychology to actually understand what I need
to be doing, baby steps. I understand now that before all of that, I
was very goal orientated long-term. And I understand now that because
of all the trauma that I had, that those goals long-term, don't work
with me now anymore because I tend to lose track of that because of all
the things that are calming my brain sometimes.
Joseph: So, I've been doing goals short-term. And that's been working a
lot more, and it's keeping me on point, focused. And I stayed away from
friends that all they do is party. So, I stayed away from friends like
that, and that's actually helped me out a lot.
Anne: That's great. So, in terms of things that have been difficult
landing a job since you have been good, economic challenges, you're
sort of dealing with them, right?
Joseph: I'm dealing with them.
Anne: You were saying that in terms of education, you were educating
yourself in terms of Business-
Joseph: Analyst-
Anne: Analyst. And that's probably online. Is that what you mean?
Joseph: Since those courses are very expensive? I didn't know how
expensive they were. They're probably like 80,000 Pesos to just get a
course and-
Anne: Right.
Joseph: And then you have a certificate. So, it's just the course. So,
I started looking for online training for free, that probably just
showed me maybe three courses and started mashing courses together to
understand them better.
Anne: Yeah, because you're smart, so you'd do that.
Joseph: So, that's actually... It was helping me out. And those
processes have actually helped me in my workplace because they told me
when I got hired, "Do you know these processes?" I'm like, "Yes." "But
you have to have a certificate to back you up?" I'm like, "Honestly,
no. I'm going to tell you the truth. I've actually learned myself. I
have never went to a physical financial institution. Say pay for this
course, I'll get this course and I'll get it. Unfortunately I never had
that, but I can go ahead and learn it. If you guys pay for a course, I
can pass it because I've already done it myself.” I know how to work
the process. And I just did it. I guess I hustled it. And in the
internet, learning the tricks and knacks to downloading free books,
books that are maybe outdated, but that still work around here and just
interpret them differently now. That's how I learn.
Anne: That's great. Yeah. How about socially? How's it been?
Joseph: Still the same, very an social outcast.
Anne: But you do that yourself?
Joseph: It's very hard to find people to not judge you. Or typically
all my friends that party or worked in call centers, they're like,
"Why'd you leave the United States? Like, I don't understand it." And
sometimes it's hard to explain to people that way, because they don't
know how it feels passing through those types of dilemmas. Maybe they
have experience because they went to jail, because they gone through
this, and stuff like that. And I told them, "That's your choice. You
made a decision. I didn't make my decisions to have friends die. I
didn't make my decisions to have my ex fiance die. None of that. That's
something that should happen. And you have to go through life and find
a way to live with it. It's not easy." So, something you got to
understand that you can't judge people just because you think it's
better on the other side, it's not.
Joseph: And sometimes you got to understand what people suffered to
actually leave that to the other side. It's not the same thing. It's
like you hate Mexico and you hate the United States. Which one are you
going to go for? And you hate both of them. You got to love one of
them, at least. And right now I love Mexico. I mean, even though
it's... Yes, it has a lot of flaws, government's horrible. I mean, now
it's a little bit better, but it's going around and same way, but it's
still something that you got to think important and find a lot of
people that think that way or comprehend it. And to the point where
they won't judge you, or they won't say like, "Man, you should have
gone back to United States. What are you doing over here?" It's just
like, "Hey, let me live my struggle." I mean, I've learned as a short
age that if you struggle here, you struggle everywhere. It just depends
on you if you want to get yourself out of it.
Anne: So, basically things have been better for you?
Joseph: Yeah. Job-wise, yes. Social, I'm still a social outcast and
have certain friends there. Money-wise, not so much because since I
don't have a formal academic diploma, it's something here that Mexico
is very stickler on. That they're very sticklers on, "Hey, if you have
the paper, we'll pay you this much. If you don't have the paper, but
you have the experience, we'll pay this much." I'm like, "Ah, but I
have experience more than what a person will have with paper."
Anne: And they don't look at your graduation from NYU as something?
Joseph: No, because they say that it's not something that I use it on a
day to day. And with this employer, I proved them wrong. And I was
like, "So, what do you think behavioral science does in my company?"
Easy. How are you standing right now? The way you're standing is the
way you demonstrate how you want to go out and talk to someone. You
want to take them serious. You want to go in laid back. Right now,
you're trying to be laid back so you don't feel enforced, but whenever
you ask serious questions, you kind of tighten up. So, make sure you're
being understood correctly. And you want to be taken serious on a
question and you want a serious answer. So, that's how I know, because
whenever I go to a client, whenever I see agents, whenever I see my
coworkers, I know that their body behavior, how are they going to go
ahead and take and how they're reacting to what I'm telling them.
Joseph: And also I let them know if something's going to change. I want
to know who is the person or who are the group that's going to not go
along with what I want to do. And I'm going to have problems there.
Before any hand, I got to watch these three, because they're the ones
who didn't measure up to what I was trying to tell them in body
behavior. You don't have to actually say things to actually understand
what a person wants in the moment. I mean, sometimes it's just your
intuition, yes. But, it's really about science. You have to understand
that. And also the logical path of a neuroscience was letting you know,
"Yes, this is wrong," "Yes, this is correct," "Yes, this is what I want
to hear." Or, "Yes, this is a way to formulate a question without being
condescending or without being aggressive, without being persuading.
You're just being neutral."
Joseph: You have to understand in a company, when you talk to a woman,
you have to be neutral, but you have to be persuading to a certain
extent so they don't feel uncomfortable, but they feel that you're firm
and you know your stuff. So, a man you have to go ahead and show that
you're firm, you have to be persuading, you have to let them know
because unfortunately in Mexico, there's a lot of people who think it's
a man's world. And you got to go ahead and cover up with them, even
though your moral say, "No, it's kind of both ways." I mean, and a
little bit going on further, you're going to see a lot of women take
power. And when I went to HolaCode, I liked that about that because
there's a lot of women in power saying they're doing things because
they want to do them.
Joseph: They're the kind of feminists I do respect because they're not
just creating equality for people. They're just actually looking out
for humanity. Once we stop looking for humanity and helping each other
out, we've lost all humans inside of ourselves. So, that's what I like
about things to work it's way around. So, after I got done with the
interview and I was like, "Have a proven myself, right?" I mean, even
with my psychology, I know how to bullshit. Even without my psychology,
I don't know how to bullshit. So, I can go ahead and do a lot of things
with it. And it just really depends on how you use your knack for
things. And psychology has taught me a lot of things. So, it broadened
my horizons to people that they didn't know me, that want to know me
and sometimes it's just hard to understand people.
Joseph: And I get people like that. So, whenever they talk about their
problems, I'm like, "I get you." But, when I was talking about my
problems, sometimes it's different because they don't know that path of
how things are supposed to be and it’s not supposed to be their idea.
They have to be able to live in multiple worlds, ‘cause one world
doesn't govern everything, it’s multiple people who govern everything.
And they're not going to have the same mindset. So, you have to be
mature enough. And also my psychology helps me to understand that not
everyone's is going to think alike. And also to understand that not
everyone thinks alike you have to try twice as hard because you have to
make sure that if this guy thinks he wants money or this guy thinks he
wants growth, this guy thinks he wants something else. You got to unify
all of them, because you got to make sure that he's on the same page
and make sure they're coordinating each other. And that's what
psychology does as well, you get a knack for things like that. So, I am
good for the job.
Anne: Well, yeah, that's a really good explanation of it. And you know,
college in the US I think teaches you a lot about how to think through
problems and analyze problems, not just the psychologists, there's a
whole psychology education that goes with it.
Joseph: It has to do with you... 60%, as you as a student, and 40 the
teacher, because the teacher... I've had teachers that inspired me.
I've had teachers that I didn't want to go to school because I had the
courses. But, thankfully I had teachers that actually always rooted for
me. I was a knucklehead when I was younger. So, all my teachers
actually were the ones who were getting on my case because they knew I
could have the potential.
Anne: That's brilliant. So, tell me a little bit about the work, in
terms... This is part of the survey. How many hours do you work a week
or day... I mean, a lot? You can say a week, you can say a month, I
don't know what-
Joseph: A week, I probably work about 90 hours.
Anne: What is your earnings? So, I don't know if you're paid by-
Joseph: Pesos.
Anne: Pesos. But is it by the week or by the-
Joseph: Oh, it's every 15 days.
Anne: 15?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: And how much do you get?
Joseph: I get 10 every 15 days. 10,000 Mexican Pesos.
Anne: Okay. So, that would be like-
Joseph: 20,000 Mexican Pesos-
Anne: A month?
Joseph: A month, yeah.
Anne: That's a lot better than a Call Center, right?
Joseph: It is a lot better, but that's why I'm thinking of switching
sides, because yes it gave me opportunity, but they're not paying me
for what I'm doing and what they're asking for.
Anne: And this other company's…
Joseph: They're actually recognizing, because when I talk to them,
they're like, "Wow, you are experienced. You know a lot of things." And
whenever I had one recruiter tell me... And because he called, I think,
about two weeks ago, they like, "Don't say how much you earn, double it
or triple it, because from what you know and what you're working, you
can get it. And right now, unfortunately I don't have a job position
that actually pays you that. I mean, I have a position that will pay
you maybe 15,000 Mexican Pesos more. But I mean, from what you know,
it's yeah. And it's hard that you don't have a diploma that actually
respects from that people, but there's a lot of companies that will
respect you because of your intelligence, what you have, what you can
bring to the table."
Anne: Yeah, and what you can actually do.
Joseph: Yeah.
Anne: So, do you currently live with anyone or do you live alone?
Joseph: I found roommates.
Anne: So, friends?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: Do you still have relatives in the US?
Joseph: Yes.
Anne: Do you ever see them?
Joseph: Mom and dad, no. Brother and sister, maybe sometimes.
Anne: Do you have relatives in Mexico?
Joseph: Yeah.
Anne: Grandparents?
Joseph: Grandma, only.
Anne: Do you see her?
Joseph: Try to every weekend. I try too.
Anne: So, you would never go to the US again?
Joseph: Not to live. Probably if I have a job that makes me go back and
forth, I'd be fine with that. I mean, I have things set up there that
help me, now I won't start from zero, but it's just something that…that
moral compass broke from there. Just saying that I can't look at it
again. There's a lot of people, police officers that whenever these
things happen, especially in Florida and Georgia, a lot of police
officers are retired military. So, when that incident happened, they
told me that, "We get what you're going through, but you have to push
through it. Each one pushes differently. And each one has a family that
will push them differently as well, or friends or something. But you
have to understand that if you stay here, you will have to live with
what you're caring for. And you're going to have to go ahead and
simulate it because you can't be a risk anybody else. So, you have to
understand that you joined for a reason."
Joseph: And whenever I joined, I did it in selfish reasons because I
want it to be a citizen. Because, that's kind of like the American
dream, but it sucks that immigrants over there, even if you have good
schools, you didn't go in jail, you never went to juvie, are not
eligible to be a citizen over there, even though they're contributing
the right way. And the ones that are, not mean to be the bad word, but
the ones that are mess-ups are the ones who usually get away with
things there. And that's what broke through it. At the end of the day,
told my family that yes whatever I had accumulated that there from
goods, properties, things that I've paid for. It's just something that
comes and goes. You will always get something material, but you had to
be set to yourself and true to yourself.
Joseph: If you want to be a happy life, you got to know what you want
in life and go for it. Even though it takes you a long time, but you
have to at least keep sight of what makes you you. And being in the
United States doesn't make me me anymore. And I mean, after all that
bureaucrat shit, it just goes away with whatever you actually felt for
there. You're just like, "Really? That's what the hell we're worth for
you. That's what you're going to go through? That how you throw away
our lives?" And then there's people patriotically saying like, "Yeah,
yeah." Because you probably never went through that and if you went
through that, you probably have a big moral standings wrong with that.
Joseph: And if you are a veteran and you know things go through that,
those are the people that are like, "Yeah, we get you, but shit happens
and this is our country." And unfortunately I was able to say, "Yes,
this is my country because I was raised here, but I wasn't born here. I
can go to my country." So, that's what made me more [inaudible
00:23:42] decide to come here. And also my family, because they felt
that I was going to be a wreck because my first instinct was to go to
Europe. I have family in France and in Spain. And they told me, "Yeah,
we can set you up here." And my family was like, "We don't trust them
because they're a family that we don't see very often. We don't know
how they are, what they do, who they are and what they're about. So
we've want you to go to your family, family. We want you to make sure
you're safe. And if later on in the world, later on in life, you feel
you're okay, then move over there, go. But right now you're not in a
mindset to be okay." And they're were right because when I got to
Mexico, I was not the brightest decisions that I've made here, but
those helped me actually aligned and take a lot of anger out that I've
had accumulated there and made me more calm.
Anne: Does the political climate in the United States now make you feel
like you made the right decisions? Does it reinforce your decision or
does it... Do you just sort of-
Joseph: I feel sad that people forget how that country was built. They
forget the values, they forget something just because of hatred and
something they don't fully understand. And that's what's going on. It's
not even about things doing that. Politically, they have their reasons.
They have the power of money moves around with a lot of governments. A
lot of agencies all around the world want to go ahead and make someone
the scapegoat. And that's something that people are not talking about.
And when they talk about it, they get silenced. So, in a sense, yes,
I'm happy that I'm not there to live that because that would just break
my heart because of veterans that majority are minority, not even
immigrants or illegals, it's just are minorities, are the ones who
focus on creating the Armed Forces. And they're the ones kind of like
the backbone that gave them that power there.
Joseph: And all of a sudden they're saying, "Oh, you're not worth it."
For example, Trump made an accusation—I'm guessing at Fox News
channel—that only gives soft questions to him. That veterans…that
they're not cut out for it. That if you have PST or something like
that, then you just weren't cut out to be in the military. And it's
just like, "Wow. How can you say that? When you yourself, in your time,
when there was a draft, you actually faked an injury and there's record
of it and you still deny it." So, that's something that doesn't happen
quite often. I used to respect our presidents and the history that
military showed us, because it was something that you have to be part
of the military to understand what your orders are going to be.
Because, you got to understand that you're sending in thousands of
troops into a country that are not all going to make it.
Joseph: And you have to make a decision saying, "We're doing it for
them." Now it's just people doing it just for power. They're not even
doing it for the right reasons because when I was in there, you could
have easily taken out a lot of people, very fast, very swiftly. But,
there was always that power between money, greed and certain people in
power that wanted to do the right thing but weren't allowed to because
it was not seen correctly. I mean, whenever you do the extractions with
people, you knew where they were. You knew that if... And that can
guarantee you, patriots have gone in there, that whenever Bin Laden
happened, patriots themselves, they signed up to go on excursions and
say, "We'll take them down, without no one else getting hurt. We'll
risk our lives." Knowing that they might die and that's the beauty part
of being in the military.
Joseph: You're willing to take that fight to them and if you succeed,
you take one down and you take them down good. And you make sure that
their organization understands that there are people willing to go
ahead and sacrifice themselves to go out for the better good of
everybody else. Which is what the military stands for. It's protection
for everyone that's not geared, not trained, not in that political
point of view. And everything that's going on right now, it just makes
me sad that they're giving military people not the credit enough they
deserve. And that they're saying that something that's horrible or
something that's different. I mean, there's a lot of people, activists,
there's a lot of pacifists, there's a lot of people who think the right
said that, "Yes, sometimes we do need military action to go ahead and
share safety." But, that's because our culture has cultivated that.
Since the end of time, we've always resorted to violence. If there was
peace, had to be violence, if there was war to be won over, violence.
Everything was violence. So, it's hard to reset that mindset and say,
"We don't need violence." Yes, you're probably right. We don't need
violence, but in this world and age, how are you going to make that
happen? We've been cultured for years and years.
Anne: Violence solves war. So, it's violence, even in peace there's
violence. You're right.
Joseph: So, whenever that started happening, I am happy that I am done
with that. But, I am sad that there's still a lot of people that are
doing it for the right reasons and that don't get recognized. Even,
whenever you're a veteran. It's something that people don't understand.
It makes me sick whenever you see a veteran on the street. They fall
for something. And because we were probably... Saw a lot of things that
people shouldn't see. I mean, there's psychological studies showing
that if you expose a hundred people to death, 80% will be affected. If
you expose a hundred people on creating that death, all of them will be
affected. And they don't understand that we had to do orders, it's not,
"Yes, we had a moral compass, yes, we're doing it." But our moral
compass was really jacked up for that patriotism saying, "You're doing
it for the right reasons. You're killing for the right reasons. You're
losing your life for the right reasons."
Joseph: And you're thinking that blindly like, "Yes I am." But,
whenever you start getting conscious of things, that's whenever you
make mistakes. And I know from frontline, if you make mistakes that
costs you your life. And unfortunately a lot of people... And it's
true, a lot of people who've been in the military for a long time, tell
you to not have a conscience. If you have a conscience, that little
second of doubt is a gunshot. It's something that happens. And I had a
conscience, but I just always stuck by the rules and what they told me
and that overlapped my conscience. It messed me up on what I had to do
to get through to objectives, missions, recons, measurements of what we
need to go ahead and task for certain people who were tagged. It's
something that doesn't have to happen to a lot of people.
Joseph: And unfortunately, even though in the school, I was bright. I
was never the type of kid that would take nines and tens. I was the
kind of kid that would slack and just get A's on the test without even
working on it. And when I joined the military, I saw that it was better
to be smart than to be tough, because it's tough people are the ones
who die faster than the smart ones.
Anne: I want to thank you for coming to talk to us again.
Joseph: Pleasure.
Anne: It looks like you're doing well. And in another year, if we see
you again, you'll be doing even better.
Joseph: Hopefully. I wish to keep growing professionally. And hopefully
I'll be done with my debt. So, that's something that's also motivating
me.
Anne: Do you think you'll ever start a family?
Joseph: I want to, it's just-
Anne: You're not ready?
Joseph: Yeah.
Joseph: I had a lot of partners tell me... This has been affected me in
relationships with why I don't want a kid. I know that if I have a
child, I would be over protective, but I wouldn't know how to handle
whatever I went through, whatever I've been through in the military. My
dad growing up, my mom growing up... There's evilness in everyone, it
just depends on how you take it up. And I just really don't want to be
that type of person that feels a certain way about having a child and I
want one. I'm scared of that evilness coming out again.
Joseph: Not being that correct parent for whoever I might have a child
with. I do know that if I have a child, the first thing I want them to
do is to understand how things are working in world. And I understand
some people telling me that you should let a child have his innocence,
and it's fine. But, this is a certain limit nowadays, unfortunately,
that that innocence has to be molded differently because the times
change. We're not as secure as we once were back then. And
unfortunately, even in Mexico, there's a lot of racism here and
something that you have to prepare your child for.
Joseph: And also there's a lot of violence around the world that just
because you're a certain color, you're a certain race or certain
something, or a certain intellect is different, you're criticized or
picked on. So, I do know that when I have a child or a daughter or son,
they're going to go ahead and learn to fight, be trained and have a
conscience that understands how things are nowadays. So, I do want one.
It's just that little part of my brain that tells me, are you even
ready? What if you let your evil part out and you mess that child's
life up? Like they did to yours. And if that [inaudible 00:34:52] comes
around, I always thought of the idea of adopting. So, kind of there in
a little while maybe. If I don't have a partner, I'll do it myself.
Anne: Well I think just the fact that you're thinking through all this,
the evil will not come out.
Joseph: Hopefully. I wish that.